How about 2 jump types - 1 is as now. The other jumps to adjacent systems and ignored ship class limits.

GameAdmin wrote:

How about 2 jump types - 1 is as now. The other jumps to adjacent systems and ignored ship class limits.

More or less, I think that's what I *tried* to suggest.
Question; what do you mean by "adjacent system"- same as now (next system on the current)?

Adjacent would be the next in a straight line N, NE, NW, S, SW, SE.
Unless that system is locked, in which case you would skip on to the next system that was not locked.

And if you hit the edge of the map then the jump would fail.

The question is, having both types adds quite some complexity...maybe? I find it simple enough.

Also, the ship class rules could mean that a certain direction was simply disallowed? Or would the ship class rules get ditched? I guess they could get ditched. ie open systems will accept any ship type and I'm not seeing simple battleships in those - ie the ship classes are suitably diverse that people are choosing different classes now.

So:
2 jumps types.
Scrap ship class limits on jump in.
Scrap pts check on a races first ship into a system.

I think we all like the 2 jump types and I, for one, don't think it'll be confusing ... we *might* call the non-galactic movement something different for clarity though.

IF it's going to be a direct system-to-system jump (ie; not mucking around through the "empty systems" between) I would leave all the jump-in checks in place and simply have such jumps fail the same way a jump in from the galactic would- otherwise the jump in checks are completely worthless and you'll have the huge battles appearing again from people simply jumping into adjacent systems to get a back door in.

As a note; I might make a Lock a barrier, like a full system, instead of a skip.

Question: what do you mean "And if you hit the edge of the map then the jump would fail. " ?

You can't jump off the galactic is all I meant.

As for jump in checks - I would like the 13 pt over power check in and the x*planet max pts check in. I'd just remove the limit based on ripcurrents which restricts system access based upon ship class. ie on the galactic click on a star and it will tell you the max ship class allowed.

Also, it occurs to me that you and I were on slightly different tracks - I was not suggesting jumping over empty systems. But it does raise an interesting point, which is that when you jump they client could list the next X systems in each direction and your ship could jump into any of them. Maybe not. If not then it would only list the next 1 system in each direction.

This brings us back to an earlier suggestion - how about jump gates. Basically any ship can directly jump out to any system containing one of their jump gates/their empires jump gates.

So we have the galactic for movement as now, and then a jump gate network for direct jumps. Obviously you could only enter new systems using the galactic - a new system would not have a jump gate in.

Or do you prefer the slow expansion to the next system in a given direction only? I must admit I'd probably continue to use the galactic in preference to any of these alternatives. I'm not sure what they actually achieve if we leave galactic as it is now.

If we remove galactic as it is now then I can see a point.

GameAdmin wrote:

As for jump in checks - I would like the 13 pt over power check in and the x*planet max pts check in. I'd just remove the limit based on ripcurrents which restricts system access based upon ship class. ie on the galactic click on a star and it will tell you the max ship class allowed.

If you can have a mauler/dreadnaught/other huge ship in one system, and can't in the next, the ship limit becomes a fiddly rule.

GameAdmin wrote:

Also, it occurs to me that you and I were on slightly different tracks - I was not suggesting jumping over empty systems. But it does raise an interesting point, which is that when you jump they client could list the next X systems in each direction and your ship could jump into any of them. Maybe not. If not then it would only list the next 1 system in each direction.

I think there's a miscommunication here.
when I say "empty system" I'm talking about what are blank hexes on the galactic- "systems" without stars... and I think that these could provide interesting options if available (whether or not they possess terrain of their own- either possibility being interesting).

I would suggest against any "skipping over" of systems, occupied by someone or not.

GameAdmin wrote:

This brings us back to an earlier suggestion - how about jump gates. Basically any ship can directly jump out to any system containing one of their jump gates/their empires jump gates. So we have the galactic for movement as now, and then a jump gate network for direct jumps. Obviously you could only enter new systems using the galactic - a new system would not have a jump gate in.

Seems simple, but again damages the larger tactical aspect of the game. Frankly, with the instant 20-move galactic this would be redundant. Without the free move, and with the gates, there's still no need for garrisons or other tactical deployments of a race's overall fleet.

I think a gate system has potential. I also think the consequences need considered.

Another note, given the removal of credits, what limits on gatebuilding are there?

GameAdmin wrote:

Or do you prefer the slow expansion to the next system in a given direction only? I must admit I'd probably continue to use the galactic in preference to any of these alternatives. I'm not sure what they actually achieve if we leave galactic as it is now. If we remove galactic as it is now then I can see a point.

Stepping aside from the conversation as it stands, I'll try to share a vision of Inter-system movement based on everything discussed;

If a player wishes to move a ship from one system to another they have 3 choices-
1) Galactic Map. The primary means of distribution of ships, fleet commanders use the Ripcurrents generated by their race's colonies to determine where their ships can enter. Ships move once per galactic turn, one hex per engine.
2) Trans-system. By moving past the jump-out zones at the edge of a system a ship arrives at the next "system" it shares a boundary with. Which adjacent system it enters depends on which "jump zone" the ship passed through. Ships traveling this way may find themselves in the empty reaches of space- allowing exploration beyond their own RipCurrent system or allowing them to fast-time across systems faster than they might move on the galactic.
3) Jump Gates. The third method of transit is used to move within an empire. Useless for exploring new systems, it helps guardians be where they are needed quickly. When a Jump gate is constructed it is given a destination system which already contains a trade gate. A vessel using the Jump out command within 5 of the Jump Gate is immediately transfered to the destination system within 5 of the Trade Gate there. If a trade gate is missing when a ship attempts to jump to it through a Gates they simply move to the galactic adjacent to their system of origin (normal jump-out).

Some analasys of each and their combination in this layout;
1) The basic movement and navagation. Movement should be done once per turn when orders are issued or on the galactic turn- but not as often as orders are issued. This provides some distance and time to the Galactic. The primary recomendation of this type of movement is its simplicity and effectiveness.
2) While galactic movement allows you to keep tabs on where most of your fleet is relative to the systems they guard, this movement allows a ship or fleet to take advantage of the fast-time ability of single-race systems to move ships in "real time" to get to action fast. Coupled with the ability to move through "empty" systems, this allows exploration. It also provides an ability to perform raids of other race's core systems, without robbing those races of the ability to try and defend.
3) Jump gates provide especially fast movement among established core-systems. Essentially, it is a way of accelerating the movement about done by type (2), trans-system, jumps without creating issues with the ability to explore and grow provided by other movement types.

Hopefully, I've conveyed the excitement I see in this combination, the pragmatism of it, and enough details to make clear the image in my own mind...

OK, I understand now.

BUT: Galactic movement in all it's forms is bad.
ie there are 4 turns per day. A player can fail to play for 5 days before a system cycles. Thus, a player can move on the galactic pretty far in this time, it's just annoying. Which is why I removed all the restrictions.

So galactic movement could change to you can still move 20 as that works, and still move instantly cos that works. But, you can only enter Open Systems (>10 planets) and your own homeworld.

So in your vision:
1) Galactic movement lets you rest V damaged vessels. Move vast distances to open systems, or return to your network through your homeworld.
2) Jump Gates let you jump to any of your trade gates or jump gates.
3) You can jump to the next system N, NE, NW, S, SW, SE from the system you are in providing it is not locked. Note no issue which starting location in a system - no need to be in the correct 'jump zone'


I also think you will only be allowed to build trade gates if no others exist in the system.

You will only be allowed to build Jump Gates if no trade gate in system.

i.e. systems with no colonies in will become jump gate hubs. Ideally you will try to make these open systems. So a damaged ship will jump to galactic. Once repaired it will jump into the jump gate open system. From there it will jump to a trade gate system on the border of your empire. From there it will TransJump into an adjacent enemy system.

Seems like a lot of hassle to simply jump into an enemy system... Surely a better rule would be:

Your ships can only jump into open systems, and those connected by ripcurrents to one of your systems holding trade gates.

Which is almost what we have now.

I guess your vision is about the fact that players should not be able to move fleets to defence fast enough unless they plan in some way.

Actually, TransJump is the only thing you have which we don't currently have. i.e. the ability to jump from your current system to an adjacent one. And your idea of jump zone means you could fight yourway to the jump zone for an adjacent hex.

I think your goal is brilliant, but the implementation adds too much work for players (IMHO - i do appreciate the discussion!)

So, instead, we have Jump Gates which are paired. These connect the source to a destination that is fixed.

Once built they can be destroyed by combat. No self destruct.

You may open a gate from any source system to: any system 'adjacent' to the source system. Gates are two way.

So you can create a gate into a system. That creates a gate in both the source and destination. Once in the destination system you can create other gates leading on to someplace else.

Ships that jump within 5 of a gate go through it. Ships on the galactic may only enter open systems and the homeworld connected gate network (see final section after cons).

Jump Gates like trade gates use up support cost - they start at size 9 which is cost 1. If you armour them then they cost 2 etc.

PROS:
====
Jumping is now territorial. You have to move near the gate, so during the fight you can take possession.

Capturing a system with lots of gates in can reduce their ability to defend systems, and move forces about.

CONS:
=====
Why do I have to waste lots of turn submissions moving through a gate network which is unchallanged by the enemy.

OK, so, the game client will work out all the systems unchallanged by the enemy and on entering a gate all available parts of the network are there! GOOD. Unchallanged means there are no enemy within the system. If enemy are in system then that system becomes the end of the network.

This unchallanged network is also open to jumpin from the galactic, using the homeworld as the starting point.

GameAdmin wrote:

Why do I have to waste lots of turn submissions moving through a gate network which is unchallanged by the enemy.

I want to capture this comment as a point in our discussion, and possibly a key difference in how I see the game. I don't assume turn submissions used for movement are a waste. dozens or hundreds of turn submissions used on a repetitive action (the previous colonization procedure) was tedious- but exploratory or "real time" movement *should*not* be.

GameAdmin wrote:

Galactic movement in all it's forms is bad.

I disagree- as for system turns lasting up to 4 days, that's a choice (or unfortunate rl situation), but the fact that a player can move long distances in that time is no reason to allow them to move even farther in, say, 10 minutes. This is what I feel the current situation is- galactic movement was too much of a limit on arriving at systems, but now there is no limit on fleet availability- exacerbating the 1:1 death to reenforcement issue...
In tartarus, one of the great tactical points was that an invading army had to cross the terrain from the breeders/halls to the target area, or the source of reinforcements had to be made vulnerable by moving them closer. This trait is conspicuously absent from the current rules of RipSpace.

GameAdmin wrote:

I guess your vision is about the fact that players should not be able to move fleets to defence fast enough unless they plan in some way.

This is a piece of it, but not all. there should be an interplay between defense and offense, but also between both of these and the ability to get to something interesting.
Each of these provides a different "timer" to movement, and thus different access to battles (the central point of the game), but each also carries its own cost in personal attention (trans-system movement), in game investment (jump gates), or real time (galactic movement).

GameAdmin wrote:

1) Galactic movement lets you rest V damaged vessels. Move vast distances to open systems, or return to your network through your homeworld. 2) Jump Gates let you jump to any of your trade gates or jump gates. 3) You can jump to the next system N, NE, NW, S, SW, SE from the system you are in providing it is not locked. Note no issue which starting location in a system - no need to be in the correct 'jump zone'

1) Mostly yes. It allows rest, it allows clarity in deployment of ships, and allows access to your network and the systems just beyond... Also, with the rules I'm suggesting, large ships will get where they're going with far fewer turn submissions and (possibly) faster in real-time.
2) I really think each jump gate should have a single, set destination- whether that is another Jump gate or a Trade gate. Giving choice in destination as a standard part of the construct becomes far too powerful very quickly.
3) Yes, you can jump from current system to next system provided it is not locked. However, my intent is that you must be in "proper position..." Even further out than the Galactic "Jump out," this is meant to make the systems feel adjacent and connected- thus the reason I keep talking about the "non-star" systems between... This should make the individual system maps "overlap" (virtually)- creating a zoomed in image of the galactic to navigate through.

GameAdmin wrote:

Actually, TransJump is the only thing you have which we don't currently have. i.e. the ability to jump from your current system to an adjacent one. And your idea of jump zone means you could fight yourway to the jump zone for an adjacent hex. I think your goal is brilliant, but the implementation adds too much work for players

I don't see it as being more complex than the current jump out area... and (my own tendency) I never view an option as an added complication. It exists for those who wish to explore that facet and feature, but does not intrude on those who do not.

GameAdmin wrote:

(IMHO - i do appreciate the discussion!)

As we've discussed before- I enjoy these discussions, and while my suggestions may or may not become part of the actual ruleset, I find the process interesting and appreciate and learn from from the input of everyone involved.

OK, say we went with this (and it's not a certainty) then:

1) On the galactic plane, you can set the destination for your ship. Every galactic turn it will move a number of hexes equal to the number of engines on the vesel along the route. You can amend the route anytime you send in orders.

From the Galactic you may jump into any open system, or system containing a jump gate, or your home system. ie NOT many really.

2) Jump gates are constructed and cost 1 to support (being size nine). If you armour them they may cost more (see ship classes). A jump gate can lead to any system of yours which contains a trade gate, or any open system (more than 10 planets).

If leading to an open system without a trade gate, then a trade gate will be constructed in the target system automatically.

Jump gates and trade gates may not exist in the same system. Jump gates are one way only. If the target system has the trade gate destroyed then the jump gate will also be destroyed.

Any race can use the jump gate.

3) Every system has 6 jump out points. These will take you to the next system N, NE, NW, SW,SE or S depending on which point you are near when you jump. You have to be within 5 hexes of this point and you will emerge near the oposite point in the target system. If the target system is locked the jump out point will not work.

4) When you are in a system alone, no enemy at all then your ships can move any distance - equivalent to you submitted many orders in quick succession.

5) You may not build a trade gate in a system containing a non empire trade gate, or any races jump gate.

6) Lockdown drones do not work in open systems.


Summary for a ship
==============
So, a vessel that jumps out of a system, and is not near a jump point or a jump gate will emerge on the Galactic plane.

A vessel that jumps within 5 hexes of a gate or point will go through it to the destination. For jump gates they will emerge near the target trade gate, and for jump points they will emerge near the oposite jump point.

Ships will now start within the home system. Rather than on the galactic plane.


OK, What have we achieved with this rule set?
=================================
Harder to defend an empire now as mobility of fleet is an issue. To expand you must use the 6 jump points built into a system. This is good as it adds territory to a system map.

Players WILL respond by delaying turns until they can get their forces there. So, is all this effort for nothing?

Easier to attack? Not really. It is easier to outnumber an enemy now. I don't think that matters.

Players who want to run pirate fleets - just going for Epic Blooms and the occasional invasion are pretty uneffected. They simply play on the galactic plane, fighting in open systems. However, it can now take them days to get their ships into the target open system. So they simply create jump gates from their homeworld to the open system. And from there to another open system. Very simple. Very fast. But it only works if you cannot lockdown home systems (thus the rule above).

Make a 'ships' arrival time in a system dependent on how fast that system is cycling. (so system turn + 10 or somesuch). That pretty much eliminates the natural 'delaying' to allow reinforcements as a set amount of combat will of occurred before they arrive.

As a random note; you might seperate the movement discussion into a new thread, leaving original thred for the original topic... since we've so thoroughly hijacked it.

Mapmaker wrote:

Make a 'ships' arrival time in a system dependent on how fast that system is cycling. (so system turn + 10 or somesuch). That pretty much eliminates the natural 'delaying' to allow reinforcements as a set amount of combat will of occurred before they arrive.

This is an interesting idea... I'm not sure of the implementation or the pragmatics- but it is interesting to consider.

GameAdmin wrote:

OK, say we went with this (and it's not a certainty) then:

1b) (jump into open system, jump gate, or home system). I'd leave galactic travel working with ripcurrents as it is now. Even with those limits, it is the simplest and most straitforward method of travel, and as such should be left for new players to get around their neighborhood.

2) Jump gates need to lead to a single, pre-determined system.I'm not sure if this is simply not clear in your discription, or is actually a disagreement between your discription and what I'm worried about.
I really like the ability to use enemy gates.
I don't like the idea of "free building" trade gates in other systems. Part of the limiter on a gate system is that you have access to both the origin and destination- and causing target gates to be built by building the source gate creates possibilities for abuse.

3) more like "jump out fields," instead of a point with a radius of 5, make the edge of the map "hot" for this sort of jump. Essentially it becomes a second "jump out" area, and a line instead of a spot.

4) I actually like this quite a bit. I *might* still have the moves broken up for planet movement bookkeeping... but otherwise, I like this a lot..

5) I'm pretty ambivilant on this. I like the concept of enemy races building trade/jump gates in the same system- especially with the ability to hijack enemy gates...
There's something to fight for.

6) discussed momentarilly

GameAdmin wrote:

OK, What have we achieved with this rule set? =================================

generally, this is accurate. I intended that "Jump Points" be areas (like the Jump Out zone), but otherwise, yes.

GameAdmin wrote:

OK, What have we achieved with this rule set? =================================

I'm not sure where the idea that expansion would require use of the Jump Points came in. My intent was that it *could* involve Jump Points- as ships wander out into the universe -or could be done as it is now (from the galactic, along RipCurrents).

It will make it harder to defend an empire, especially a large empire. However, this gives an advantage to smaller empires (read; new or small players) when empire edges meet.

None of this makes it easier to attack in ship to ship sense. Neither the galactic nor the gates make it easier to be aggressive against another empire. Jump Points, trans-system movement, makes it easier to to attack another empire- to run a pirate fleet or otherwise raid -IF its possible to avoid star systems. By trans-system jumping through the dark hexes you can get to the juicy underbelly.

Players who want to horde Epic Blooms will find the number they can access from the galactic are limited- because even on the galactic their reach is limited, giving other players a chance at other blooms.
However, if a player wants to make a network of jump gates between open systems- gates that other players will also be able to use -then more power to them... another reason for conflict to erupt when they find their resources being used by others.

Quote:

I really like the ability to use enemy gates. I don't like the idea of "free building" trade gates in other systems. Part of the limiter on a gate system is that you have access to both the origin and destination- and causing target gates to be built by building the source gate creates possibilities for abuse.

The issue here is that I want a player to be able to play with the starting point allowance, and no colonies - if that is what they want. Slowing down galactic movement means they won't bother. Getting to an open system would take an age on the galactic map. So you need to be able to get there quickly.

The free building was my initial solution. An alternative would be that if you are moving to an open system on the galactic then it is instant. ie there are fast currents on the galactic leading to open systems or some such. This is maybe bette/simpler.

So, on the Galactic you can instantly travel to open systems. But getting to others is slower.

Quote:

Make a 'ships' arrival time in a system dependent on how fast that system is cycling. (so system turn + 10 or somesuch). That pretty much eliminates the natural 'delaying' to allow reinforcements as a set amount of combat will of occurred before they arrive.

It might solve it, but would be very hard to keep track of. I don't really like it. Lockdown drones exist to limit battles already.

Quote:

1b) (jump into open system, jump gate, or home system). I'd leave galactic travel working with ripcurrents as it is now.

Hmm. If we leave the galactic movement as now, but restricted to 4 times a day, and hexes=engines then I don't think we are making the game better. I think everyone will still mainly travel on the galactic, because it's simple. A 10 engine ship can travel 40 on the galactic in 1 day. So why would anyone worry about trans-jumping or jump gates. I know I wouldn't.

Effectively we add loads of rule complexity for mechanics which won't get used.

Quote:

Quote: Make a 'ships' arrival time in a system dependent on how fast that system is cycling. (so system turn + 10 or somesuch). That pretty much eliminates the natural 'delaying' to allow reinforcements as a set amount of combat will of occurred before they arrive. Quote: It might solve it, but would be very hard to keep track of. I don't really like it. Lockdown drones exist to limit battles already.

So make the + part of it be the 'active lockdown' drones power. Think of these drones as merely delaying entry into the system, instead of blocking it completely.

Whats wrong with blocking it completely.

I like that. Admitedly the 2 turns delay could mean you simply block yourself......errrr.