Hm, limited targeting, that might make a major difference in that you have to see what you shoot. The defense would still have the advantage but attacking wouldnt be as suicidal.

I disagree on an dug in enemy being impossible to defeat. The defense has to cover all avenues of approach while the attacker can concentrate. This was the tactic developed in WWII to breach german lines. Attack in column at a concentrated point giving your overwhelming firepower and superiority at a limited front so you could get behind the lines and attack from the rear. The enemy has to maintain the whole defense so cannot easily reinforce one point. This is the tactic that doenst work with OT's involved.

GameAdmin wrote:

Maybe we combine all these ideas: Artillary: have no shields, and must be deployed to fire. Once deployed they can never move again. When they fire their range is from normal range to *2. They cannot fire at targets closer than 'normal range'. Their shots drift by up to 2 hexes in any direction. They can only fire at one location (hex) each turn. They can fire blind, and lay down suppressive fire. This fire destroys bio-mass and also hits titans than move through it. I think we need another addendum, the WT of artillary counts double. Basically, artillary will quickly destroy any static line. Non artillary units can only do direct fire. They cannot fire at empty hexes. This reflects the 'real life' aspects of combat. Means attacking is easier.

I'm suprised you're considering such big changes to be honest - it would mean a very different game. But change is good, apparently.

I do think this makes artillery very powerful. Since we're going the "real life" way, artillery is expensive! You can't perpetually launch shells at the enemy and then, when eventually you decide to stop, walk over the charred corpses that was your enemy... well, okay - you can - but ultimately, in "real life" the shelling stops because no army could maintain it forever; offensive or defensively.

To that end, perhaps artillery needs to be "powered" by biomass. A "deployed" titan converts all its weapons into "artillery shells" or whatever. Intially these are full but each time they are fired the they empty. Artillery shells then fill up with biomass from the hex deployed on (and maybe the surrounding hexes). This allows quick firing upon deployment but then evevtually the unit will run out, or at least have to wait until biomass grows again.

I'll leave it at that, my head hurts.

P.

Yes but in real life you dont have to abondon your arty after using it. i think the use and lose aspect and the destroy biomass would be perfect as you could eat up enemy supplies and lost the titan afterward.

It is a large change, but if even long term players who still have the time are getting frustrated because they have run out of tactical options, then I think we do need a new rule.

Artillary is good - and direct/indirect fire is good, and killing bio-mass is good.

BUT, I know they are a little overpowered at the moment. eg you produce 2 lines of artillary, staggered by 7 hexes. The forward line blasts the enemy, the real line lays down suppression ahead of the first. Scattered around the forward line are conventional skirmishers. It's a pretty convincing setup, especially if there are paybe 30 artillary pieces.

Saying each shot uses up 1 bio-mass is a very simple and good limiter. The obvious other point is should they then be able to go mobile again, or are they use once devices?

Maybe use once is best, high experience artillary would be a killer.

OK, so backing off a bit.

Could we say that all titans have two fire modes? Direct and indirect. Indirect fire needs bio-mass, and can only be fired when 'emplaced'. i.e. why have the restriction about no shields? If indirect fire gives range-double range, needs bio-mass, needs emplacement and does double WT.

This makes your armies more versatile. Emplacement makes a titan an artillary piece. You can later go mobile again.

I think that is a better rule - doesn't need another special titan type. The drift nature of indirect fire means it really is an offensive weapon. hmm. Except at certain terrain bottlenecks, where it will be a massive defensiev weapon.

Advancing it even further. Why not limit the number of guns an artillery titan can have or even work the build that each unit would have, say 3 x 210 WT guns, which in itself would require a specialist breeder?

Peter.

I don't have anything to add as it all sounds good and I think that the emplacement idea is excellent. I'll give it the "Thumbs Up"

GameAdmin wrote:

Could we say that all titans have two fire modes? Direct and indirect. Indirect fire needs bio-mass, and can only be fired when 'emplaced'. i.e. why have the restriction about no shields? If indirect fire gives range-double range, needs bio-mass, needs emplacement and does double WT.

Originally the "no shield" rule was to give artillery a weakness so that they can be taken out once discovered. So they're powerful and can shatter a line, but only really need one titan to take them out. With great power comes great consequence!

But... I guess its not needed if ANY titan can emplace/unemplace. As once an emplaced enemy unit is discovered, you can emplace one or more of your own titans to take it out. So, yeah, ditch the no shield bit.

Quote:

This makes your armies more versatile. Emplacement makes a titan an artillary piece. You can later go mobile again. I think that is a better rule - doesn't need another special titan type. The drift nature of indirect fire means it really is an offensive weapon. hmm. Except at certain terrain bottlenecks, where it will be a massive defensive weapon.

But then that's not a bad thing really. Terrain features should have defensive potential. And no enemy should attack through a bottleneck unless absolutely nessersary.

Anyway... yes, its sounds pretty good. I've nothing I can think of to add.

When can it be done?

probably within a month. There is a game break coming up - see announcements v soon. Only a week. And when I get back from that I can probably code it.

Jonathan

Aye, artillery is nice. All you really need though is 3 hexes more range than your opponents guns for it to be effective. Twice the range of other weapons is a lot, even with drift.

I've been thinking.

Emplaced titans are still just too powerful. Even with the proposed limiters a staggered formation would still be very hard to beat with conventional units and will just result in battle lines much like we see now, just further apart.

I agree that:

1) Artillery is good.
2) Direct/Indirect fire is good.
3) Killing biomass is good.

But I also think, since change is on the cards, that a few more philosophies need to be considered which penalise defence and award offense:

4) Moving titans are better than stationary ones.
5) Spread out titans are better than clustered ones.


So some rules to relate to the philosophies:

1) Any titan can "emplace". Doing so doubles the WT and fire range of the titan at the cost at the cost of shields*, mobility and short-range fire. Aditionally weapons will fill like spawning chambers and can only fire when full. Fill rates need to be discussed. Lastly, emplaced titans fire indirectly (see rule 2). Titans can unemplace and revert to normal titans.

*Why do artillery units need armour if they are long-range fighters?

2) Unemplaced (ordinary) titans can only fire at other titans. Blind fire will miss**. Emplaced titans fire indrectly, this means they "shell" a hex for a whole turn meaning any titan that moves through the hex will get hit.

**A possible extension to this rule is that blind fire doesn't cause damage but can surpress the enemy, either preventing the enemy from returning fire (due to having to keep their heads down) or perhaps knocking the titan out of the targeted hex. Whether fire is direct or supressive depends upon the individual titans line of sight. Supression tactics make fighters both capable and HAVE TO get in close to make the kill.

3) Emplaced titans use it. Breeders use it. Fighters kill it. Like gates, every salvo kills a tree of biomass. War lays waste to the environment.

4) Titans that are moving are moving targets. So they should be harder to hit than stationary ones. Since the only sort of cover fire titans will now encounter will be from devestating artillery shells, this bonus should be relatively strong! So whilst stationary sheild tech is 100%, with each hex a titan moves they gain a 10% boost to shield tech.

So chance to hit for a titan charging 5 hexes is:

(1 + (0.1x5)) x current chance to hit rule.

5) When a titan dies/explodes (but is not self-destructed) it causes damage to the surrounding hexes. This encourages titans to spread out.

And I'm done.

Yes, I'm horrid, we had a nice set of rules and now I've gone and churned it all up again.

Night.

if we're talking about changes, killing biomass, and player control I have an idea. This may require more coding, or invasive alteration of the current code, than most of the other changes suggested, but it's an idea;

Make biomass and terrian alterable by fire and titan death.
each hex must (currently) have at least 2 values; current biomass and elevation.

What if titans of sufficient size, instead of simply adding biomass increase the terrain elevation?
Corrispondingly, fire on an empty hex (or to be really cruel, any hex) could be given a chance of striking and destroying biomass and if truely awesome amounts of firepower could reduce elevation.

A) hex is fired upon.
B) titans within that hex check for damage.
C) Biomass within the hex checks for damage and variable's value is reduced according to damage dealt after "shields". (green biomass should have weaker shields than higher rated biomass, so titans can destroy biomass in their own areas)
D) Terrain within the hex checks for damage and variable's value is reduced according to damage dealt after checking with (high tech) shields.

A) Titan dies.
B) % of titan's source biomass is added to current biomass in the hex.
C) % of titan's size is added to the current elevation in the hex (requiring decimal values be carried without effect).

This would allow long term players to create defensive emplacements, instead of simply finding them, and allows other players to tear those emplacements to shreds if neccessarry to cut through them.


It also might be worth exploring a limited way of extending land into water so people can, literally, blow craters in the map and not worry about the long term results of destroying the entire map (though that would add pressure to move conflicts).


obviously, none of these are exclusive to the idea of artillery, which I like the idea of in some form.
I particularly liked the idea of firing "biomass shots," the idea of "breeders with guns" being particularly scary enthuses me for some reason, and will encourage new experimentation in form and function.


I would also like to see some expanded effects of the various techs, reasons why players would have "breeds" of titan specialized in one or another, or reasons to have wierd configurations.

some other (good and bad) ideas;
Shields; shielding over 100% coverage grants a chance of invisibility. Such a titan forces all viewing titans to "check to spot" them. If a single titan in a clan sees an "invisible" titan, they are seen. Firing weapons and moving would also increase the chance they are seen.
Computers; In addition to driving active systems, healing, and the other myriad things these are important for; Unused computers would be used to spot "invisible" titans.

Variant weapons-
"normal" titans use a "low arc" fire.
artillary is discussed above, using a "high arc"
what about a short range line of effect (all titans between here and target are subject, but even shorter range).
or even shorter range spread (all titans in a specified shape, such as a cone extending from the titan or or burst around target, are victims)

The weaponry on a titan would be set at creation, with different possible effects as weapon, material, or other techs rise.

The terrain changing rules won't make it I'm afraid.

My reasoning is two fold
1) It is quite hard to code for - player maps would become out of date, which means the movement alg on the client would be broken if moving out of scan range....ie it's a can of worms

2) Deployed discussion above.
I've read it, please contribute more ideas to the thread everyone.

Basically, I don't want to throw anything out of the discussion yet, the more ideas the better. I'll pull it back together in a week or two on my return.

Jonathan

GameAdmin wrote:

The terrain changing rules won't make it I'm afraid.

I assumed that, for the first reason listed, but you have to admit it would make life interesting.

GameAdmin wrote:

2) Deployed discussion above. I've read it, please contribute more ideas to the thread everyone.

not sure what this means. if the concern is terraine chaning under an emplaced titan; build the if/than so terrian isn't checked if there's a(n emplaced) titan in the hex. The first reason was more than sufficient, though. I assumed that historic maps and moving would create issues with the idea of changing terraine. Shame though.


back to artillery;
I dislike the idea of surpression; makes things too complecated when attacking a group of titans on a hill.
I'm not so fond of the idea that an unemplaced titan couldn't fire wildly at an area- though I absolutly agree that if they do so their miss chance should be much higher than a targeted shot.
If we go to targeted shots, what happens if other titans pass through the hex? move into it after the targeted occupant leaves?

and I just like the idea of drift.
However, any shot where the firing clan cannot see the target (firing blind into previously seen terraine) should be penalized on the too hit and probably not reported. Require scouts and spotters.