One of the items that comes up (again and again) is that there are a very limited number of titan designs and little reason to experiment with them. To solve this requires that alternate titan forms be given reasons to exist. Apocriphally, a former head of DARPA said "if we don't fail more than 90% of the time we're in the wrong area." in that spirit, I'm going to start throwing out ideas. I expect GOD will nerf many of these ideas, and those considered to have enough merit to deserve actual discussion should probably be removed to seperate threads, though twisting, turning, altering, or cleaning up or an idea would be good to leave here until someone decides it's a real possibility.

One idea I saw on the other threads was firing biomass; perhaps a titan with spawning chambers and guns could recieve an effective bonus to it's weapon tech for each point of biomass vented when the shot is fired.
This provides a reason for primary fighters to posess spawning chambers, allowing a choice between more standard shots and fewer more powerful shots.

An idea I posted, admittedly in the midst of a different disucussion;
Shields; shielding over 100% coverage grants a chance of not beeing seen. Such a titan forces all viewing titans to "check to spot" them. If a single titan in a clan sees an "invisible" titan, they are seen by that clan. Firing weapons and moving would also increase the chance they are seen.
Computers; In addition to driving active systems, healing, and the other myriad things these are important for; Unused computers would increase chance to spot "invisible" titans.
This increases the utility of Computers and Shields.

And a "new" idea;
crossing the idea of using non-weapon systems to effect weapon function;
Overpowering weapons- use extra "energy" from engens to increase range with a shot. This verges into the idea of direct v indirect fire discussed elsewhere, and might be a related discussion, but it's something to think about.

since no one else has thrown out ideas (and I've not come up with more) I'll try to propose algorithms for what 's already been thrown up.

Mortis wrote:

One idea I saw on the other threads was firing biomass; perhaps a titan with spawning chambers and guns could recieve an effective bonus to it's weapon tech for each point of biomass vented when the shot is fired. This provides a reason for primary fighters to posess spawning chambers, allowing a choice between more standard shots and fewer more powerful shots.

when firing a "biomass shot" select biomass stored;
shots fired gain a bonus to weapon tech when calculating damage (not hit or range)
= (WT * B)/S

WT : Weapon Tech
B : Biomass chambers vented
S : Shots fired

This gives a reason for a "straight fighter" to consider cells of spawning chambers instead of more guns. While there might be an optimal gun/spawn ratio to gain an advantage from this I'm not sure what it would be and why there wouldn't be a percentage to going to either side of that "optimum."
As an added bonus, it turns biomass into a form of ammunition as well as breeding substance. Helps burn through it faster, meaning it's hard to have a prolonged battle in a static area (especially if breeders are trying to work in the same area).

Mortis wrote:

crossing the idea of using non-weapon systems to effect weapon function; Overpowering weapons- use extra "energy" from engens to increase range with a shot. This verges into the idea of direct v indirect fire discussed elsewhere, and might be a related discussion, but it's something to think about.

Similarly, these shots gain a bonus to weapon tech when calculating range and possibly damage (definitely not chance to hit)
= WT + (UP/S)

WT : Weapon Tech
UP : Unused Power (power generated is Engine Tech x Engines Active, power is reduced by moving or "turning on" shields and weapons.)
S : Shots fired

Encourages high-engine, thus more maneuverable, titans. Combined with the ability to use spawning chambers to improve damage this provides a 3 axis weighting just for weaponry when building a fighter, as opposed to guns, shields, whatever it takes to run that, and a choice in where to put an extra system or two.

Mortis wrote:

Shields; shielding over 100% coverage grants a chance of not beeing seen. Such a titan forces all viewing titans to "check to spot" them. If a single titan in a clan sees an "invisible" titan, they are seen by that clan. Firing weapons and moving would also increase the chance they are seen. Computers; In addition to driving active systems, healing, and the other myriad things these are important for; Unused computers would increase chance to spot "invisible" titans. This increases the utility of Computers and Shields.

Percentage Chance to Spot
= (200 + Ct + ME + (WE * S)) - Sh

Ct : Titan's unused control.
ME: Enemy movement (in hexes)
WE: Enemy weapon tech
S : Shots enemy titan fired.
Sh : Enemie's shield coverage.

this provides a reason to seriously consider more shields or more computer than are strictly necessarry.
gives the possibility of "sneak attacks."
(sudden images of a pair of high-shields low weapons titans playing "battleship")

shield-spillover;
significant shielding (determined by points produced, not coverage %) provides adjacent titans a portion of the excess coverage. (nice; provides allied titans. mean; provides anyone)

I have read the suggestions.
No comment to make really.

Just wanted you to know you weren't shouting into the void.

Jonathan

thanks, I was kinda concerned about that.

I'll keep throwing out my random bits in hopes something will inspire.

In an effort to help jog my own ideas (and anyone else’s) this is where I’m at;
There are 5 systems (and corresponding techs)-
Computers (CompTech)- Produce control
Engines (EngTech)- Use control, produce energy
Weapons (WeapTech)- Use control and energy, produce pain (offensive nanotech).
Shields (ShieldTech)- Use control and energy, produces ECM
Spawning chambers (Material Tech)- collect/hold (produce) biomass.

There are 5 manipulated quantities;
Control
Energy
Biomass
Pain
ECM

4 actions;
Repair (uses control)
Move (uses energy)
Spawn (uses stored biomass)
Attack (uses pain)

3 “core” designs;
Artillery; (heavy weapons, light other) lots of damage, easy to hit.
Turtle; (heavy shields, light other) moderate damage, hard to hit
Balance; duh.


Presuming;
1) Greater variation in “viable” (optimal) designs is desirable.
2) adding new systems and/or tech is undesirable.
3) changes to the environment should be limited to non terrain “surface” features (biomass, trans-gates, wormholes, other titans...).

Desired;
1) New ways to use/expend/manipulate Control, Energy, Biomass, Pain, or ECM to achieve game effects, whether currently active, new, or altered.
2) New effects from current techs to provide increased incentive to use alternate designs/tech levels.

This sound about right? Any additions or corrections?

Presuming the veracity of the previous division of “optimal designs” (which I’m very open to being corrected on), the optimal Techs are Weapon or Shield, with others being increased to support those. Similarly, Weapons are the most desirable system with all others being provided to the minimum extent needed, possibly with little redundancy for coping with damage or simply somewhere to put “extra” systems.
This is perfectly understandable as a result of the game; weapons/attacks are the central feature (as advertised!). However it also leads to a predictable outcome in terms of titan design and direction of optimization. Setting aside considerations of to-hit, damage, and similar ideas (which have been better addressed elsewhere, and are unlikely to change at the moment), this means that other considerations must be brought to the fore to induce a change, or experimentation, in titan-building strategies.

Reviewing the changes suggested elsewhere on the board for value in terms of this discussion (but not value for their intended purposes);
Artillery (direct/indirect fire) has little or no effect on this framework unless the use of other materials is considered (proposed idea to “fire biomass” which has already received further consideration above). Even extended ranges do not encourage interest in improved movement when its as easy, and more effective, to extend ones own range via improved weapon teach.
Objectives have little or no effect on this framework unless system requirements are somehow implemented. This is an idea that is excessively artificial unless some benefit or significance is bestowed on particular designs.
Tech/titan cap switch has little effect on this calculation, weapons remain the primary consideration. However, the delivery method can be significantly changed via the use of larger numbers of small titans (theoretically), which leads to some experimentation in design. Likely, however, these design variations will restrict to “hulk” and “horde” versions of the listed three.
Totems, halls, flags, mines, etc are all single special titan design, and thus while they would provide some variation, they would be “single serving” variants and not things to be experimented with beyond simple mastery of when they are or are not useful.
(anything I missed?)


Possible goals for ideas;
1) Weaken Weapon Tech or strengthen other tech so they are comparably valued.
2) Make larger amounts of control/energy/biomass/ECM comparably valuable to excessive amounts of Pain.
3) Provide things to do aside from “rush/attack/kill/rush” cycle that involve non-weapon systems (preferably, things with value to the cycle of violence). (strengthen other tech value.)


Idea;
Gain benefit from historic map. Increases value of engines, computers, and scouting. Benefit might be increased clan size cap. Also increases value of moving about and thus increases likelihood of encountering others. On the other side, people do this already just to learn the map, and it seems to have little effect on overall clan composition aside from, possibly, a small contingent of scouts.

thought: When is it better to fire one shot than to fire 5?


unrelated idea;
Alternate experience generation method- If a titan's scan range does not overlap with another clanmates during the current turn or the previous they gain experience equal to the lower of their scan range minus four or the distance (in hexes) between their current position and their position during the last turn.
Encourages high-mobility, far-seeing titans. Also encourages clans to spread out and remain mobile.

As of right now you cannot reduce WT becuase it is ST that is favored and all powerful. A reduction WT would only make attacking more difficult. A Reduction in ST would only allow the current WT to do more damage, hopefully thereby creating more of an ability to punch through.

Other techs are only used in moderation for scouts, arty, or breeders. Engine tech is usually the most discounted.

The Shadow wrote:

As of right now you cannot reduce WT becuase it is ST that is favored and all powerful. A reduction WT would only make attacking more difficult. A Reduction in ST would only allow the current WT to do more damage, hopefully thereby creating more of an ability to punch through.

I'm uncertain how ST is favored and all powerful, please elaborate.
However, I am willing to stipulate this- my concern, however, is less with the relative power of ST v WT and more with the O(ther)T(echs).

The Shadow wrote:

Other techs are only used in moderation for scouts, arty, or breeders. Engine tech is usually the most discounted.

uncertain why breeders would use different techs than their produced fighters.
Uncertain why artillery would use anything other than WT except to the minimum level necessarry to power it's guns.

otherwise, this comment is my entire point.

Entrenchment
This idea has less to do with new fighter design than presenting new utility to breeders as something other than “how I get more fighters.” Further, it attempts to encourage value in breeder strains with focuses on other techs.
Optionally, some or all of these might randomly “grow,” which would make this more appropriate to the Objective thread. (see King of the Hill)

Grant clans the ability to “build” Non-Titan Objects (NTO’s). These NTOs are non-clan, uncontrolled, physical features which might or might not share space with regular titans, may or may not allow Biomass to grow near them, and might have any variety of special effects. These items are damaged as if they were titans. Some possible effects;
* Shield generator; grants shield coverage to titans within a radius (determined by using breeder’s Shield tech on the “weapon range” chart. Biomass within this radius does not grow, blocks movement as a titan in the square.
* Fog Generator; Increases “altitude” of hexes within radius by 1 for those trying to scan the area. The radius is calculated with the firing range chart using Shield tech. Occupies hex as a titan.
* Forbidding tower; Each turn it fires on each hex within its “range.” “Range” equal to scan range of breeder’s computers. Shots fired per hex determined by firing range chart using Material tech. Blocks movement as a titan in its own square.
* ECM Siphon; Reduces shield coverage within area of effect. Area of effect equal to computer scan range, ECM reduction equal to shield tech of breeder. Occupies hex as a titan.
* Bunker; titans in the hex receive +100% coverage at their own shield tech. Biomass does not grow in hex.
* Trap; Titans which enter the hex suffer attacks. Number of attacks determined by firing range chart using Material tech. Computer tech replaces Weapon tech for all other calculations. Biomass growth is amplified in square.
* Repair bay; Titans which remain in hex have the amount of Control required to repair reduced. Biomass does not grow in square.

ST is favoured over WT due to a number of interrelating factors.

First as your ST rises you are both harder to hit and will take less damage from enemy salvo's. This usually combines to make high ST titans more survivable, which in turn often means that can accrue a higher level of experience which partially compensates for a lower WT.

Secondly as ST rises it covers more systems, which means that if your titan sizes stay relatively constant you need marginally less shields at higher ST that at lower levels.

This has an impact on the number of engines needed for the design to be functional compared to a high WT design, as high WT design will require more power than a high ST design as you will typically need more guns than shields. Meaning that a high WT titan will often have less guns than you would like due to the high number of engines needed to power them.

Lord Nova wrote:

ST is favoured over WT due to a number of interrelating factors. First as your ST rises you are both harder to hit and will take less damage from enemy salvo's. This usually combines to make high ST titans more survivable, which in turn often means that can accrue a higher level of experience which partially compensates for a lower WT. Secondly as ST rises it covers more systems, which means that if your titan sizes stay relatively constant you need marginally less shields at higher ST that at lower levels. This has an impact on the number of engines needed for the design to be functional compared to a high WT design, as high WT design will require more power than a high ST design as you will typically need more guns than shields. Meaning that a high WT titan will often have less guns than you would like due to the high number of engines needed to power them.

Not my experience. Put a high ST fighter up against a high WT one with opposite techs (i.e 70/46 vs 46/70)... who wins?

The high WT one! Why?

Chance to hit is the same initally, as is damage (I think) but the higher WT titans score experience more quickly. Experience soon accumulates and skews the outcome in favour of the high WT titan.

In my experience.