got my new race today.
Noticed several things right off that thoroughly puzzled me;
The galaxy is far more empty than in the last age (less a puzzler than a surprise).
The colored ball next to my ship name has a number (4), what is that? At first it looked like we have unlimited galactic movement, but some playing around illustrated that the ship's movement is actually limited to 20 hexes, so I'm guessing the number is a counter for either cumulative gal movement over turns *or* free galactic turns for a new player. ...so... I'm trying to determine the best approach to starting depending on which.

I also noticed that we no longer automatically know every other race in the universe- though we can still free look through uncontacted systems.

Welcome back!

Move 20 = easing the ability to fight!

The empty galaxy is partly in response to worries from some players in the beta. I'm not sure of my response. I'll see how it fills up.

The number is an indication of the ship class, the lower the value, the smaller the ship class. It's an easy indicator of how big your ships are.

The other races is more a bug than a plan...

GameAdmin wrote:

Welcome back!

Always glad to get that sort of reception. good to chat with you.
Not sure how "back" I am though, more like had a few minutes and got the post-beta e-mail so I thought I'd see what you've done with the place.

GameAdmin wrote:

Move 20 = easing the ability to fight!

not sure how I feel about that. then again, I was pushing for more provincialism and garrisoning.

GameAdmin wrote:

The empty galaxy is partly in response to worries from some players in the beta. I'm not sure of my response. I'll see how it fills up.

not sure how I feel about it either. With the extended range it isn't as horrid as it could have been.

GameAdmin wrote:

The number is an indication of the ship class, the lower the value, the smaller the ship class. It's an easy indicator of how big your ships are.

figured that out finally, nice.

GameAdmin wrote:

The other races is more a bug than a plan...

then I'll reserve judgment until/unless I see an indication that it doesn't cause other problems. I always thought limiting information is a good thing though.

I reproduced a more dense galaxy, and released game client 7.1 which will now show all systems with home worlds in.

I think thats all the initial major points....

did you shorten the movement? I think 20 is a little excessive with a denser universe (still a fan of the idea for 1:1 engine:movement on the galactic- for all that I argued to change that in-system).

I'm disappointed that homeworlds are shown. I'd really like a scheme where less contact=less information: listed "races known" are races where gates/ships are seen, systems where you have no currents connectiing do not reveal contained planets (reduces cherry-picking colonization- requires exploration which leads to contact), enemy colonies in system are only revealed with a ship/gate in-system, etc...


all that aside, can we ditch the "your colonies" astrogation selection- its redundant with the "selected race's colonies."

The thing I am trying to cater for is
a) Someone who likes games (me), whoi have a family (me), and a day job (me) and hobbies (me) who also wants to play this game (me).
b) err, me.

ie someone who can't commit massive time, but wants a tactical space combat game which is engaging, and reminiscent of lots of sci fi stuff.

My target audience is me.

So I'm going back towards easily accesible small fleet battles, while trying to support that other demographic who want to rule the galaxy. I think it is possible, but you (I) need to tread a fine line to do it.

Got to go to bed now, more tomorrow.

GameAdmin wrote:

So I'm going back towards easily accesible small fleet battles, while trying to support that other demographic who want to rule the galaxy. I think it is possible, but you (I) need to tread a fine line to do it.

I agree completely. My line of thought is that open ended games with good tactics and rules can be scaled by a player's approach. That's why what I'd really like to see is the ability to give a 20+ hex move order, but have the actual per-turn movement limited. That way players with limited time (like you) can give your galactic orders once per day/couple days and compete equally in that consideration with people who are giving orders every galactic turn.
Further, by limiting the per-turn movement you weaken the ability of those with sprawling empires to respond to incursions. This gives an advantage to those managing small fights because the response of the "galaxy-rulers" is limited by logistics.
Further, the galaxy-ruler contengent will, ultimately, have larger total fleets. While they may be limited on a per-system level, this means they will be able to invade more systems successfully- less of a problem if they have to spread their fleets out to manage responses.

What about the frustration factor?

i.e. you have all these ships and want to get into a scrap, because you have an evening free, but the game won't let you.

Actually, I had another thought over the weekend which goes like this:

Ships that have no damage will move imediatly on the galactic map. No delay for the galactic turn. This means new players, new ships, and winning ships can really accelerate through the game. Which is a good thing.

Back to the main debate: Given the above change, how does that effect your debate about gal move rates.

I completely understand what you're talking about. I've been trying to come up with something since shortly after I first got here.
However. While I completely see how this would help that frustration (and one I've shared), I'm not sure allowing fully healed ships to travel at their own pace is the answer. My largest concern about that *is* the empire builders. While this is effective at allowing "jump to action" effectively, it is logistically identical to providing unlimited movement and will create problems due to that.

The only ideas I've had;
* some sort of multiple galactic maps- allowing multiple galactic movement rates (assuming the normal "turn runs when all orders are in")
* the use of in-system gates- allowing travel that evades the galactic "speed limit."

I'll see if I can come up with something else...

I'm not convinced it helps empire builders that much. Fine you can always get to an incoming attach, but the points limits and lockdowns mean it will be a pretty even fight.

The main thing will be that a player that wants a fight can have a fight. No delays. Which is very important.

I thought lockdowns were going to change, points limits reopen if a ship dies- allowing new combatants to cycle in- and the problem isn't response to your looking for a fight in one, the empire builder can bring the fight/colonization to half a dozen systems.

remember, I'm not arguing that this needs a solution- just that I'm afraid this gives an empire builder the ability to retaliate with too much force and too much speed.
You're talking about making a certain category of system always open. What if, instead of allowing free move, you did the following;
* gave a command option that immediately (not on the galactic turn) jumps the ordered ship into the nearest of these "chaos systems."
* create a set of "wormholes" among these systems. Only among these systems, because we don't want to make currents redundant. The wormholes can be random, server generated, decaying, or emplaced and permenant- it doesn't matter. I might preferr drifting, decaying, and "spontaneously" generated to discourage "guarding."

This allows the sense of space for conquest, exploration, and slower-scale games, but also gives a network that can be jumped into at-whim and moved through at fast-time until a fight is found.
It does so without giving anything (or much that's useful) to the empire builders, and creates an interesting "alternate travel" path.

I don't think we need the complexity.

Instead of garison fleets an empire builder will now have a cloud of ships on the galactic - probably in clumps to avoid cluttering up their empire space.

As someone invades they can move ships to counter - but the overmatching rules mean that the invader can lock it down and prevent massive defensive outnumbering - the max you can exceed the smallest fleet is now 400 pts (about 1 decent ship).

I think this will work - defenders should be able to defend with force if they have it. Otherwise they will try and hold up game pay while their galactic forces get their. i.e. they still are able to reinforce, it just takes time under the old rules.

GameAdmin wrote:

Otherwise they will try and hold up game pay while their galactic forces get their. i.e. they still are able to reinforce, it just takes time under the old rules.

That's part of why I would like to see the ability to give multi-turn orders- also why I always get sketchy when people suggest nerfing lockdowns. I suppose a solution to people holding systems is to not allow new ships to actually enter until the end of the next turn run (ie; after lockdowns can be set off)... though I'm sure that would present some ineteresting challenges.

The other argument is this de-emphasizes the sense of space and place that the galactic has contributed.

I think you're underestemating the effect.

I'm not sure about that.

I agree RipCurent have MADE the galactic map a place. Before them it was, well, simply a menu. After RipCurrents you need t have a plan.

I've done some coding and 12 planets for open systems works well.

So, the current aim is:
1) RipCurrents for strategic empire builders, with an eye on open systems to open new regions.
2) Open systems and lockdowns for pirate players
3) Quick entry to combat for all players, no matter their time constraints.


So, does changing from move 5 hex every 6 hours, to moving 20 hex instantly have a profound effect. I don't really think so. Given that max turn before cycle for a system is 48 hours, then 5*4*2= move 40 in a given system per turn ie I have eased play, remopved bottleneck and not actually changed anything for a player who can play every 6 hours.....(not likely, but possible).

So: Can you build an empire? I don't know. I think, with allies, you could build a federation of some sort. But if you do, then I will come in on reaver ships and tear it down! Because I can

Maybe.

GameAdmin wrote:

So, does changing from move 5 hex every 6 hours, to moving 20 hex instantly have a profound effect. I don't really think so. Given that max turn before cycle for a system is 48 hours, then 5*4*2= move 40 in a given system per turn ie I have eased play, remopved bottleneck and not actually changed anything for a player who can play every 6 hours.....(not likely, but possible).

it does remove the bottleneck. my concern is it removes all bottlenecks equally.
as for the comparison between 20 instantly vs 40 over 48 hours (which seems to be the comparison you were going for), unless I'm mistaken its 20 instantly. then 20 more after a reload. then 20 more for infinite and instant movement.

GameAdmin wrote:

I'm not sure about that. I agree RipCurent have MADE the galactic map a place. Before them it was, well, simply a menu. After RipCurrents you need t have a plan.

I had somehow got that the galactic being a place was something of an intent.

GameAdmin wrote:

I've done some coding and 12 planets for open systems works well. So, the current aim is: 1) RipCurrents for strategic empire builders, with an eye on open systems to open new regions. 2) Open systems and lockdowns for pirate players 3) Quick entry to combat for all players, no matter their time constraints.

1) yes...
2) Actually, you'll eventually want some sort of "raider drone" which creates temporary "fake" ripcurrents without colonization.
3) I think there are other ways to do this that won't create the backlash this does. see below.

GameAdmin wrote:

So: Can you build an empire? I don't know. I think, with allies, you could build a federation of some sort. But if you do, then I will come in on reaver ships and tear it down! Because I can Maybe.

Yes, you can build an empire. honestly, this is experience from the beta talking. I had the empire, or enough of it that all I was waiting on was coding to give me something to do to make the effort worthwhile.
This is how I know about the need for garrison and the repercussions of giving instant travel- because I seriously considered mass invasions of multiple systems on at least two different occasions. Several times the only thing that prevented me from swamping a system with huge ships. I know Maps had a policy of rotating out damage ships for repaired ones- and with the limiter on galactic repair, being able to just run more ships over to join the rotation is a huge advantage.


again, I completely agree that there needs to be a "jump to action" consideration... I've hit that frustration on a couple occasions myself. I'm just fairly certain that this answer is not the best of all worlds.